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The Role Of The Bad Guy [Antag Discussion]
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|Subject Post 1Subject: The Role Of The Bad Guy [Antag Discussion] Sun Apr 13, 2014 11:42 am|| |
«LET'S TALK ABOUT OUR BADDIES»
It's a necessary evil to have some form of antagonizing in a plot. After all, if there was nothing to rock the boat, chances are it wouldn't make for a good story. So on that note, what are some of your own personal experiences and challenges when playing these types of characters? It doesn't matter rather they be big time villain, or just a small-time crook. Has there been any instances where you received flack from the community on how you played them? Has a player or character made you second guess any decisions or choices you've made for said character? Have you ever had any sort of regret for what your character has done? These types of questions are what this thread is looking for.
For me, I love playing the antagonist a good deal of the time because they are often the ones who act instead of react. And more often than that, I end up playing top-tier type villains. So in my view? To play a villain you need to have a commanding presence, know how to put up a good fight and give the protags something to really get riled up about. But not only that, you should probably have some sort of good backstory, personality and a mantra behind them for these types of characters. Otherwise, it just becomes -- hollow.
The reason why I love Mana as my primary antagonist, despite Touketsu being a bigger threat, is because her personality is just all sorts of flavors of twisted that I love to role play out for other people. If you've seen any of Mana's fight threads, there is usually some sort of interesting dialogue hollered out, she gives a great battle and to fight against her usually means you are pretty boss in your own way.
There is also always delicious interaction made when it comes to her whole origin of being the incarnation of Madness/Chaos. Coming from her second-guessing her relationships with other beings like Ashlei/Claire who shared that affinity, trying to maintain her LIMITED sanity/sense of self from becoming devoured by her element and essentially trying to run a massive kingdom under her contorted rule.
All of it I feel she worked for and earned; as she was initially designed to be a sizable threat since her conception, but I never imagined she'd come this far. So there is a sense of accomplishment personally when it comes to how far Mana's timeline has grown. Especially since I remember her being the weakest villain at the start of the site, and now she is essentially, by word of mouth, The Modern Day Aizen of Platinum Hearts.
Now, enough about her. When it comes to the actions I make as Mana? I don't want those to reflect back on myself. I've noticed that players in general can make the mistake of inferring what a character says/does as a reflection of the owner's own thoughts. So, with my characters, I never want anyone to think that's the case. It takes a lot of gutso to play a villain/jackass/asshole/jerk, so you gotta maneuver this terrority with care. As depending on how you play it off, some people may just end up getting a strong reaction based on your writing.
With that said, what is your feedback/experience/history/WHATEVER when it comes to anything related to these types of characters? Feel free to write out whatever comes to mind below as I'm curious to see..
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|Subject Post 2Subject: Re: The Role Of The Bad Guy [Antag Discussion] Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:21 pm|| |
This is actually a topic that's felt really relevant to me as of late, and I've gotten some ideas of my own to share about them. The one character I have who I can firmly say is an antagonist, is the Doctor. Why do I say this? Because he opposes society, and most of the time, that's what defines a villain or antagonist. It can change depending on the protagonists viewpoint, but as the site's 'protagonist' is human society, that makes the Doctor one of the absolute parallel.
The Antagonist is doing what they believe is Right.
This is a fact, that is true, and not true, at least for the Doctor. The Doctor does what he does because he believes it is the right thing for him to do. He has a strange understanding of moral code and a deeper idea of what other people expect, but at the same time he purposefully does things that he believes is wrong. He's too smart to not know what 'right' is supposed to be, but at the same time continuously chooses wrong because he sees it as the only choice for himself.
The Antagonist is human too.
This is what makes an antagonist, well, an antagonist. If the antagonist has no motivation for what their doing (Ragyo...) then they come off as weak and not very effective. Their logic doesn't click with those who view them, and its therefore not felt their impact nearly as much. The Doctor's humanity is in his childhood; it shaped him to be the creature that he is today. A creature who loves and hates, but continuously chooses wrong because he believes that he cannot be saved. From his very birth, he was perverted. At the same time, once again, he knows what is right and what he is supposed to do... but he chooses not to. He realizes that he has the will to choose good or bad, but chooses bad as he sees it to be the only thing to fulfill his paltry pleasures. The one time in his entire life where the Doctor's interests have lined up with those of society has been in the fact that he has been married. His ability of human compassion, his ability to love another still exists... he simply convinced himself that he wasn't worth it.
This comes as a bit of a contrast of Frost's belief of an antagonist. The Doctor is not commanding, he believes himself to be at the bottom of the social chain. In addition, most of his skillset is devoted to running away.. quite a bit different than putting up a good fight. His entire focus is on manipulation, on things that go against the modern view of what a villain is. He doesn't rile people up; he attempts to destroy them without them even realizing, or worse, making them cause it to themselves. What makes him even more antagonistic, in my opinion and in his, is that he seeks to cause tragedy, one of noble character choosing evil. You can do evil things to someone, but when the evil comes from nobility, can that truly be called lesser or equal? The Doctor says no, and the part of me that controls his actions agrees. He acts for himself, for nothing else. He acts on his whims, going against the natural human desire to 'protect'.
An Antagonist must be able to interact with the Protagonists
Traditionally, an antagonist is attempting to accomplish a goal that goes against that of the Protagonist, this is conflict and is the entire point of a story. They say the only two kinds of stories are "going on a journey" and "a stranger comes to town". Perhaps true, but in both cases the roles are defined based on what view the story comes from. If the antagonist does not interact with the protagonist, they are not an antagonist. If an antagonist simply interacts with those around them who share their views, then again, they are not fulfilling conflict of any kind. This is yet another requirement that the Doctor himself fulfills to the extreme, in my opinion. As a result of his view that he is at the very bottom, he can interact with anyone, on any stage of the social order, he can be hurt by them, he can hurt them, and he can interact with them on a physical and mental level.
Overall, the Doctor is an enigma. I have debated giving him the title "Father of Tragedies" in the past due to his nature of causing them, but the fact remains that he also helps. The true fact is that at his core, the Doctor is lonely. Loneliness is his redeeming quality and his curse. It is what drives him to attempt to lower others to his level, while at the same time, seeking them through Edotensei and his Snake Seals. The reason why Suzu was able to become his wife is that when he exposed that shell, that blessing and curse, she embraced it, and for the very first time the Doctor did not feel alone. However, it has become a part of his very nature, and as a result drives nearly all the actions he performs to the present day.
Throughout my career, I have received flack for the Doctor's actions and abilities. I was forced to rewrite Edotensei. UHCM was none too happy when the Doctor appeared out of nowhere and revived Shizou in front of the entire Iramasha Island, performing an action of justice despite his nature. The fact that he could attempt to make a clone of even Mana at this point is outright terrifying, and he is the character of mine that takes the absolute most trust. He has the RP'ers bane of attempting to control other characters, removing the fun out of roleplay, and therefore making him unfun if I am not very careful. Overall, he is my major antagonist, and will always sit in one of the top three characters I am active with until the end of time. He represents my instability, and it is because of that resonance with my own soul that I believe he has become what he has. He is a mess, a clusterf#ck of epic proportions, and that will only spin more out of control as time goes on. That's what makes him fun, and it is also what will drive the most flack against him in the future. In any case, he'll always be around and will always attempt to drive things along due to the fact that his nature does not tolerate boredom.
Antagonists are needed for the site, but if they don't interact with their protagonists, lack a foundation that one can relate to, and fail to show that they share aspects of humanity... then they simply will not deliver the same impact that they need to to fulfill their role.
That is all.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
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|Subject Post 3Subject: Re: The Role Of The Bad Guy [Antag Discussion] Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:50 pm|| |
The role of the bad guy; Well it really been my department with both Hagokumo Masada and Eric Zarathos really for some years it been Hagokumo. He's been my main antagonist with destruction and framing Eric for a long time as his original name Kade Hiroshima. When Akemi was around, Hagokumo was causing destruction around Karakura. He's been my main bad guy for a long while still finally the murderer was finally defeated by Yuudeshi clan leader.
He'd returned for a long time being dead, Hagokumo caused some more problems and then finally defeated.
Eric Zarathos is my vengeful mad demon.....the demon loves violence but his memories of his past are lost and gone. The mad one has been my new antagonist
Sid Iramasha been thrown in the fray as well....
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|Subject Post 4Subject: Re: The Role Of The Bad Guy [Antag Discussion] Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:57 pm|| |
- @JJ wrote:
[color=blue]This is actually a topic that's felt really relevant to me as of late, and I've gotten some ideas of my own to share about them. The one character I have who I can firmly say is an antagonist, is the Doctor. Why do I say this? Because he opposes society, and most of the time, that's what defines a villain or antagonist. It can change depending on the protagonists viewpoint, but as the site's 'protagonist' is human society, that makes the Doctor one of the absolute parallel.
Yar, I could see how you'd view him as an antag with that. Although, I'd like to chime in with the whole human society and say the PH Verse is more broad than that in my opinion. Since it's comprised of K-World, Sugiura Realm, Demon World, The Living Realm and Soul Society. In K-World, he'd actually be a protag as most consider themselves fighting for a righteous cause. Whereas anyone fighting against that could actually be an antag in K-World. So it's kind of funny how that works.
- Quote :
- The Antagonist is doing what they believe is Right.
Yarp, that quote right there is what makes a believable antag for myself. It's that in their mind? They are honestly doing the correct thing. Which is why when I end up RPing people like Kin, I have to really solidify his reasoning for the whole cause of K-World and his goals. It's also why I ended up making Rose a Neutral, although others could view her as an antag based on some more brutal actions she's taken in her past.
- Quote :
- The Antagonist is human too.
Sing: (Un) I'm an Iramasha
Mana: (Un) I'm a demon
Ender: I'm stuck in hell.
- Quote :
- This is what makes an antagonist, well, an antagonist. If the antagonist has no motivation for what their doing (Ragyo...) then they come off as weak and not very effective.
I don't understand where you believe Ragyo had no motivation. As to me? She tried to have a world filled with life fibers, wanted to feed them to the planet and eventually become one with them in a perfect world. However, shit happened and she realized that her goal may not have been met. Given the writers were obviously not going to make a 2nd season, I can see why she just ended up killing herself and letting time pass in order for the next generation of life fibers to attempt to finish the job.
Now, with that aside, I care about motivation as well, but it's also about how you can pull off a character. In theory? Everyone should be able to fly a plane based on the instructions given to you off of a information packet. In practice? Oh boy, there is a good chance you won't be able to land or fly that sucker without burning everything in the process.
The same analogy applies to antags. It may sound good on paper, but it takes a certain art to effectively convey these thoughts in thread. It's why we even have try-outs for canon characters in general. Sure, everyone knows the formula to someone like Aizen, but can they effectively play out his style?
Also, just now, I had a passing thought that a truly good antag can even take a rather cliched ideal, grow it, develop it and put a new twist on it. It's all about how you rock it, more or less. Some people are born with deformities, but they learn how to be comfortable with themselves and rock what they have to the best of their ability. The same thing can apply to a character troop/archtype you happen to apply to your creation. You can give a cliche angle, but depending on how you rock that angle, it can become pretty interesting.
- Quote :
- This comes as a bit of a contrast of Frost's belief of an antagonist.
Oh no, that's not it at all. That's just a belief for my antagoist and really major ones who are aiming for that sort of commanding presence. My words may have came out wrong, but my intent was for people just shooting for big-time villains. Of course you can go about that in whatever way you choose, as I don't believe there is some sort of standard for antag's, that just works with me as my wording is very strong in my post. Dai has said to me before in the past and I've just stuck with it.
Although, on a personal life, you are my opposite in some ways. If you remember that conversation we had on skype, you were more passive about your strength when growing up; whereas I was more aggressive and on the offense. I think that whole factor even plays in the way we write. As I usually aim for major changes in progression with the threads I'm in, even with protags/neutral; so I'm often the type to initiate something where I see you more as the type to just go along with the flow until something critical occurs where you need to strike.
So I just feel that commanding influence of my personality can be easily redirected into a pulsating aura for my antags, yanno?
- Quote :
- The Doctor is not commanding, he believes himself to be at the bottom of the social chain. In addition, most of his skillset is devoted to running away.. quite a bit different than putting up a good fight.
For one of my own secondary villains, Mecha Neo, he doesn't have that traditional commanding aura I referenced when it came to big-time Aizen/Juda Bach type villains. A lot of his powerset is mainly used towards defending, offering support and being a pillar others that are considered his allies can stand upon.
After being given a second chance by K-World after being freed from Ender's control, Mecha Neo just considers them his family and his way of ensuring this family stands is to be the anchor that keeps them in place within the depths of the Copper Cross command post.
So don't get me wrong on the whole commanding aura thing; that's just something I feel more comfortable and easy RPing.
- Quote :
- An Antagonist must be able to interact with the Protagonists
When it comes to that quote, that depends on how clear-cut the story is to the audience. When it comes to role play? They should be able to interact with the protag/neutral/antag and anyone else they come into contact with. Otherwise, it proves to be a drab experience for all if they just sit like a fly on the wall.
- Quote :
- Traditionally, an antagonist is attempting to accomplish a goal that goes against that of the Protagonist, this is conflict and is the entire point of a story.
A simpler way to view an antagonist is a person making dicey choices as the story goes along. I'm not saying that's all there is to an antag, but think of a place in your life where you could have been described as an antagonist. Imagine you are five years old, your parents are overly stressed and they are trying to save something sweet to eat for later to calm their nerves. They give you a warning not to touch what is in the fridge, but you make the conscious choice to go ahead anyway and eat all the ice cream; much to your parents distaste.
In that instance? You can be described as an antagonist based on the fact that you are causing grief to another, making a chaotic choice and thus causing conflict to your parents whom have to confront you on that matter. However, on the flip side, the antag in this scenario may have had a relatable reason for doing so. Such as using food as a comfort or escape to deal with a lot of tension in the household from his mother and father fighting over fiances; especially if there were even sort of shouting matches involved.
Thus, treating most characters like this can end up in interesting scenario's. As, since Shadin is a chaotic neutral, he questioned for a few moments if the actions he took in the Australian War were antagonist in nature or not; despite leading a relatively protagonist-esqe lifestyle in his earlier years. His intent was justifiable enough in his mind, but the result was questionable.
So to me, that isn't all there is to an antag, but I always like to think of the perception of one like that. It's all about the choices you make, how others perceive them and where it goes from there to add some sort of interest to the story.
- Quote :
- Antagonists are needed for the site, but if they don't interact with their protagonists, lack a foundation that one can relate to, and fail to show that they share aspects of humanity... then they simply will not deliver the same impact that they need to to fulfill their role
Nah, I think that's for any character really. If a character doesn't interact with their surroundings, has a lack of back story and is never used -- then they won't ever have an impact. I've seen some characters lack a sense of humanity, and I've found those sorts of character usually send chills down my spines because of it. Of course I can enjoy a humane villain, but I can also take much interest one who lacks these traits -- IF PLAYED CORRECTLY.
Just imagining someone discarding their humanity in the pursuit of a worthwhile and reliable goal would be pretty tense to watch. People do it all the time in the real world. You have to lose parts of yourself, for instance, to go aimlessly killing any person in your way. That progression into a monstrous shell of a human is something chilling. All you have to do is look at the killers in the Middle East; like those in the Taliban even. To straight-up be-head someone on camera for a belief, discarding your human emotion, is pretty tense stuff.
So to conclude: IT'S ALL ABOUT DELIVERY WITH ME. Do you have what it takes to really deliver that character's persona, background and motives to the forefront or not? It's what makes Kenpachi Zaraki interesting; given he is of the BERSERK arch-type.
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|Subject Post 5Subject: Re: The Role Of The Bad Guy [Antag Discussion] Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:59 pm|| |
«LOCKING OUT THIS OLD THREAD NOW»
Alright, since we going back and locking out old threads from 2014 and backwards, I'm going to go ahead and lock this and toss it in old general threads.
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